2011年9月14日星期三

【译者访谈 No.6】中国的城乡教育差距与打工子弟学校(上)

核心提示:本期参与【译者访谈】的嘉宾是中国知名的人权律师许志永博士和“中国见红”的博主Tom,访谈以中英双语进行,因此参与的译者成员除了主持小米之外,还有志愿者王伟,负责进行口译。本期讨论围绕着中国的城乡教育差距、打工学校现状、被拆迁的原因,以及为教育平等权进行维权的前景如何等话题展开。

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yizhe_radio.pngYZ:hello, everyone, thank you for joining us for today's conversation. I'm very glad to introduce Dr. Zhiyong Xu and Tom from the blog SeeingredinChina

YZ:大家好,今天很高兴能够邀请到两位在农村教育方面都很有心得体会的人士来参加今天的访谈。一位是许志永博士,要不然你来做一个自我介绍吧?

YZ:Dr. Xu, would you like to do a self-introduction?

XZY:我真不知道该怎么介绍,我叫许志永,主要的工作是做一些法律援助和民主法制的推动工作。

WW:That was Dr. Xu in Beijing, he has been providing a lot of legal assistance to  people to protect their own rights and push forward Chinese democracy and rule of law.

YZ:Actually Zhiyong is the quite famous among us. He is an active rights lawyer in China. His persistent efforts to help the unprivileged people are really admiring. We are glad you can join us.

YZ:志永是在中国是非常知名的一位人权律师,他持续地为那些处在劣势的人们发声,争取他们的权益,而且他曾经是海淀区的人大代表,这些都让我们对他非常敬仰,非常欢迎你参加今天的访谈。

YZ:另一位是Tom,他是“中国见红”(SeeingRedinChina)博客的博主,大家比较熟悉他可能是因为我们最近在博客上连发了一系列他写的关于农村教育部分的文章,他本人也曾经在中国最贫穷的地方作为英语老师支教两年。他现在在南京。

YZ:Another participant is an English teacher, Tom, who lived and worked in China,  initially in Southwest Guangxi province for a Chinese Christian organization. He's running a great blog called SeeingRedinChina, which we have translated a bunch of articles on the gap of the rural and urban education.

YZ:还有一位是我们“译者”的另一位志愿者,他叫王伟,他会负责把两位的发言进行中英翻译。

YZ:Another participant is from our voluntary translator group "Yizhe". His name is Wangwei.Thank you for join us, yo three.

YZ:All right. I would like to start from a little background. For those who are not familiar with the education system in China, basically if you were born in  cities or you were born in rural China, your fate will be quite different. Well, because there is sort of internal separation system called Hukou, we will talk about it a lot later, but I just wanna introduce the system Hukou for now. The system provides to those who were born in the cities the right to go to public schools; well, if you were born in rural China, you can only go to the nearby schools, and not the ones located in the cities.

YZ:我想先开始一点背景介绍。对于那些还不太熟悉中国的教育体制的听众来讲,如果你是在中国的农村和城市出生的话,你的命运会大不相同。如果你是在城市出生,就可以进到城市的公共学校;如果是在乡村出生的话,就只能进入到乡村学校。这两种学校的教学质量非常不同,对那些不想进入到乡村学校的人来说,在过去的20多年来还有另外一条道路,他们可以随着打工的父母进入到城市中,到那种专门为这种打工子弟开设的学校中学习。

YZ:For those who don't want to go to the rural schools, there is another way, another option, which is to be living with their parents who are working in the cities. And they can go to those private schools established only for the migrant workers children. These kind of schools usually are in shady condition, but that's where they can go.

YZ:我们今天的话题就是围绕着打工子弟学校展开的。一开始我想先请Tom来谈一谈,因为他曾经亲自在乡村学校中教书,我想请他先谈一个中国乡村教育的现状。

YZ:First I would like to ask Tom to describe to us about the typically rural schools. What does it look like?

Tom:A typical rural school is usually, each classroom is small, concrete floors and walls, there is a small platform at the front, where usually a teacher would lecture the students for about an hour, with very little interaction, also very few options of what kind of media they are going to use. In the university we worked in, we didn't even have proper blackboards...

[志永断线重连]

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WW:Tom 刚才介绍了一下典型的中国乡村学校的样子,水泥的墙、水泥的地,很少有教具和多媒体工具,一个班上课的话就是老师站在前面讲了半个小时、一个小时,学生坐在下面听,基本上没有什么互动。(在我教学的大学中,甚至没有合格的黑板。)

Tom:So in these schools, the blackboards are often just a piece of wood painted black. Even though there are many standards established for education in China, the educators are evaluated, the schools always get passed regardless the quality of the building and teachers. I don't think this is a secret, this is sth. well known, but hasn't really been addressed.

WW:这些学校里的黑板真的就是一块木头板,涂上黑漆挂在那儿,条件很差。而且师资力量也相当差,一般来说他们需要通过考试,但基本上所有学校都能通过考试,(无论他们的条件和师资力量如何糟糕。我不认为这是什么秘密,这是众所周知的事情,但是却没有被很好地解决。)

YZ:因此在这种学校中,学生们其实学不到太多东西,而中国的现实是你必须要通过很严厉的高考才可以进入到大学。对吧?

YZ:So in this kind of schools, it's very hard for the students to learn anything, or be an expert on anything. The more severe thing is that they have to pass the college-entrance-exam to get into the colleges.

Tom:I discovered an interesting thing when I was in Sichuan last year. I discovered many of my students had very low geography skills, not just world geography, they weren't even sure what provinces touch Sichuan. When we started asking them, they told us in their middle schools, the teachers knew that the geography is not under Gaokao, so simply claimed they had geography classes, they were on the schedule, but there were no geography class, they were just using it as extra time to prepare for Gaokao.

WW:Tom去年在四川教书的时候碰到了很有趣的现象。当地的中学生都不知道四川和其他那些省接壤,他们基本上没有任何地理概念,而不仅仅是世界地理。问起来的话他们说说是留给他们上地理课,实际上是把地理课的时间拿出来准备高考,因为地理不在高考的科目内。

YZ:那么志永,我想问问你,我知道你最近都在何以一些打工子弟学校的校长们则不同,你看到在城市当中的打工子弟学校的情况又是怎么样呢?

YZ:Zhiyong, my next question is for you. I know you have been working with some of the principals of Migrants Workers Children Schools in suburb of Beijing. What have you seen? How about the situations there? Are they good schools? What's the quality of the education there?

XZY:以北京为例,北京的打工子弟学校和公立学校相比的话还是有很大的差距,它们的校舍可能是旧的,可能是租用某些废弃厂房的办公室,或是一些很破旧的小学校,有些学校没有操场,总之他们的设施比较落后,他们的老师的待遇也比公立学校的差很多,所以老师的水平也会有很大的差距。

WW:Take Beijing's migrant schools as examples. Dr. Xu has been working with some principals of these kind of schools. According to him, the conditions about these schools are still quite lacking behind in terms of classrooms, buildings, a lot of the buildings are very old and broken. The quality of the teachers vary. Since their salaries and benefits are lower compared to those in the public schools in the cities, they might not be up to standards comparing to their counterparts in the cities.

YZ:那么对一对在城市打工的农村父母来讲,他们就要选择是把孩子送回的乡村去上那种刚才Tom描述的质量很差的乡村学校,还是留在城里上这种也不是很高质量的打工子弟学校,他们通常会做什么选择?在这两种都不很好的选择当中,他们会选哪一种呢?

YZ:My question goes like this: if I were a migrant worker working in a big city, I have two options, either send my children back to the rural schools which are poor as Tom just described, or I can live with my children in the city, which is great for me, but they have to go to the Migrant Workers Children Schools. Which one would most of the migrant workers choose?
这个问题我想先问一下志永。Zhiyong, would you like to tell us?

XZY:这个问题有点复杂。首先,家长们愿意选择公立学校,从法律和政策的角度来看,公里学校也应该对所有的新移民开放,他们有权利进入公立学校。但是公立学校对他们提供的教育是远远不够的,尤其是在有些打工学校聚集的地方,公立学校是缺失的。就是他们想进公立学校,想……[断线]

WW:The choices for the migrant parents are actually complicated. By law, their kids are entitled to enter the public schools in the cities, but in reality, they don't get the quota or the support for their kids to get into those schools.

XZY:虽然打工子弟学校跟公立学校相比差很多,但是有很多人不得不选择打工子弟学校。其实现的打工子弟学校最重要的一点是他们能够把孩子带在自己身边,即使如此,在孩子读到初中以后,也不得不回到农村去,因为他们无法在居住城市参加高考,因为他们没有城市的户口。户口制度是导致中国出现大量留守儿童的最根本的原因。因为即使把孩子留在身边但到初中以后因为无法参加高考,所以还是要把孩子送回老家去做留守儿童。那么到底选择上哪种学校对家长来说是比较复杂的。

WW:It's a complicated story. Even though the Migrant Workers Children Schools are poorer than the public schools, the conditions are not so good, they are popular because the parents can get their kids into those schools easier and they can live with their kids. But when they are old enough for high schools,
they are forced to return to their villages because they are not eligible to take the Gaokao in the cities; they have to go back where they Hukou are registered. So they have to return to villages when the kids are about to enter high schools.

YZ:Tom, when you were teaching in Guangxi, have you seen many of these kids whose parents are not by their side, and they basically have to be living by themselves?

YZ:Tom,当你在广西教书的时候,你有没有见过这样的留守儿童?家长不在身边,基本上都要靠自己处理一切的事情?

Tom:In my experiences in talking with my students, it seems like at least 75% of the my students, at least one of their parents worked in another city. Many of them are raised by their grandparents, or their aunts and uncles. In my time of working there though, I never met a student who had attended a migrant workers schools. So I am not sure that's because just where I was working, or the difficulties to transfer from a migrant workers school to a rural high school. I know that drop-out rates in some areas could be quite high, in some parts of the rural high school, it's approaching nearly 50% of all students, drop-out in some counties.

WW:在Tom曾经教学的广西的学校,有很多留守儿童,在农村至少有一方父母在城里打工,这这样的情况至少有75%。这种情况下,孩子们呆在农村跟亲戚或爷爷奶奶们一块儿在当地上学,他倒很少看到那边的小孩曾经进过打工子弟学校,也可能是当地农村的情况是这样,或者是从打工子弟学校转回到农村学校的转学比较困难。但农村学校的孩子们失学的比率很高,读不完高中的孩子的比例能达到50%。

YZ:那么我们今天讨论的核心问题就是前一段时间,在北京郊区,打工子弟学校,也是留守儿童们有可能求学的另外的途径,虽然他们多了高中就不得不回农村去参加高考。但即使这样一条道路也被阻挡了,我想了解一下志永的看法,政府会做这样的行动,你觉得是由什么驱动的?

YZ:My next question probably is the center of today's conversation, which is, what's behind the government's actions of closing down more than 30 of migrant workers children schools in Beijing's suburb? What do you think is the driving force of the demolition?

XZY:这些保守势力要拆迁打工子弟学校,主要有两个方面的原因。一个方面,他们,从经济上来说,他们希望减少北京的人口,他们希望把这些外来务工人员赶走,他们用这种方式的他们施加压力,这可能是很多官员内在的想法;另外一方面可能更加直接,也更加明显。这些教育部门的官员担心这些打工子弟学校的条件不够好,校车、校舍、食品的安全性问题等等,他们担心出了问题以后会给他们带来麻烦、影响他们的官职,所以他们想如果把这些孩子都赶走了,学校不存在了,他们也就不用承担什么责任。主要是这两个方面的影响。

WW:There are probably two main reasons for the government to demolish these Migrant Workers Children Schools. One is that the Beijing authorities want to reduce the population in the city, so they are trying to pressure these migrants to leave the city voluntarily; if they can put pressure on their kids' educations, they might have the incentives to leave; the other thing is they do worry about the safety issues, for example, the school buses may not in very good condition, if anything happens, the education authorities in Beijing may be put in hot water by these kind of accidents. Instead of trying to provide education to those migrant worker's children, they just trying to drive them out. Once they leave the city and the schools are gone, they won't have this kind of problems and bear any responsibilities anymore.

【未完,接下

相关阅读:

中国见红博客 Tom所写的关于城乡教育的一系列博文的中文译文

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